Fuel injector cleaner - worthwhile or worthless?

[Greg Houston]

Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
(50,000 miles) I've avoided any kind of fix-in-a-can. However I am
wondering if fuel injector cleaner might be an exception. Are these
helpful? Or do they cause problems with the throttle body, fuel system,
emissions etc. The car has a slight shake at idle sometimes which I
wonder if it could be helped with a cleaner.

If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

Post by Greg Houston
Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
(50,000 miles) I've avoided any kind of fix-in-a-can. However I am
wondering if fuel injector cleaner might be an exception. Are these
helpful? Or do they cause problems with the throttle body, fuel system,
emissions etc. The car has a slight shake at idle sometimes which I
wonder if it could be helped with a cleaner.
If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

All gasoline sold in the US is required to have detergents in it which under
normal
operation is all the cleaning you need.

If your car shakes at idle perhaps it's idling too low. Another possibility
is
a broken motor mount.

Ted

[Bill Putney]

Post by Greg Houston
Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
(50,000 miles) I've avoided any kind of fix-in-a-can. However I am
wondering if fuel injector cleaner might be an exception. Are these
helpful? Or do they cause problems with the throttle body, fuel system,
emissions etc. The car has a slight shake at idle sometimes which I
wonder if it could be helped with a cleaner.
If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

Greg - see my reply in the "300M almost stalling" thread about cleaning
the throttle body - often is found to fix such problems on the LH cars.

To answer your questions, as Ted mentioned, gasolines these days have
injector cleaning additives. Maybe some brands are better than others
on that, but if you're using a name-brand, you should not need to add to
the gas - but for the cost of a a can of Techron™ or Techroline™ or
Marvel Mystery Oil, it certainly won't hurt a thing. (BTW - your fuel
never touches the throttle body - the injectors are downstream of the TB).

Bottom line: I would try the TB cleaning for sure, fuel additive if you
want, but the TB cleaning is probably the cure.

Also - check the condition of the PCV valve and hose - check the hose
for clogging and/or soft/liquified rubber. That can also have an effect
on idle.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[tomkanpa]

I'm thinking of trying Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant with Injector
Cleaners and Fuel Conditioners. I never believed in a "mechanic in a
can" but more and more people, neighbors and friends, are swearing by
it. They say their car runs better, better mpg, etc..

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

Post by tomkanpa
I'm thinking of trying Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant with Injector
Cleaners and Fuel Conditioners. I never believed in a "mechanic in a
can" but more and more people, neighbors and friends, are swearing by
it. They say their car runs better, better mpg, etc..

And they would really say anything different? "Yeah, I was a dumbass and
wasted 5 bucks on crap-in-a-can that did nothing"

I have a test here for you. Once you dump your crap-in-a-can into
your gastank, take the empty bottle of L.U.C.L.I.C.F.C and put straight
gasoline in it. Yes, that's right, just straight gas. Then give it to one
of
your friends that hasn't tried this and tell him you bought an extra bottle
of it so he could try it in his car. I will bet you that he comes back
next week and says how much better his car is running!

Unless you have dyno results in a controlled environment, these testimonials
are worthless.

Ted

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 09/03/05 01:38 am Ted Mittelstaedt tossed the following ingredients

Post by Ted Mittelstaedt

Post by tomkanpa
I'm thinking of trying Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant with Injector
Cleaners and Fuel Conditioners. I never believed in a "mechanic in a
can" but more and more people, neighbors and friends, are swearing by
it. They say their car runs better, better mpg, etc..

And they would really say anything different? "Yeah, I was a dumbass and
wasted 5 bucks on crap-in-a-can that did nothing"

Psychologists call the phenomenon "cognitive dissonance." It works for
"Monster Cables" as well.

Perce

[Midwest Div]

Post by Greg Houston
Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

Good question Greg. I use Techron in my cars about once or twice a year. So
I decided to do a little research. What I found was there are real
differences between gasoline's, and four automakers, BMW, General Motors,
Honda, and Toyota decided to ban together to decide just makes "good" gas.
They came up with a new standard called "Top Tier". When you look at
www.toptiergas.com some interesting new facts emerge.

"Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by
EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration
level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result,
the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards
have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact
on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction."

A good article worth reading is from Larry Webster writing in the August,
2005 issue of Car & Driver Magazine.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9752&page_number=1

His source is Andrew Buczynsky; GM's fuel guru. Concerning additives,
Buczynsky states "they should be used with caution. He said some work but
most don't and declined to identify the ones that do." Basically, he
concludes that if you buy cheap gas (Meijers was singled out in not so many
words) then consider an additive. His recommendations are to "stick to Top
Tier fuel. It's the only way to know you're getting the right amount and
type of detergents to keep your engine clean."

The TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers currently are:
QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.

(So where is Mobile??)

Personally I trust Techron because it was developed by a major player and
has always received good reviews. (And as it does not hurt anything, and may
actually dissolve some gum or deposits, it's inexpensive insurance. About $5
at Wal Mart.)

Here is the Techron website:
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/techrongas/

Interesting that they claim that the big three automakers use Chevorn
(contains Techron). According to the site, "Chevron doesn't market gasoline
anywhere near the Michigan home of the Big Three automakers. They buy and
use only Chevron gasoline with Techron, even though they must purchase it in
Kentucky and pay to truck it all the way to the Detroit area."

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 09/07/05 11:31 am Midwest Div tossed the following ingredients into

Post by Midwest Div

Post by Greg Houston
Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

Good question Greg. I use Techron in my cars about once or twice a year. So
I decided to do a little research. What I found was there are real
differences between gasoline's, and four automakers, BMW, General Motors,
Honda, and Toyota decided to ban together to decide just makes "good" gas.
They came up with a new standard called "Top Tier". When you look at
www.toptiergas.com some interesting new facts emerge.
"Since the minimum additive performance standards were first established by
EPA in 1995, most gasoline marketers have actually reduced the concentration
level of detergent additive in their gasoline by up to 50%. As a result,
the ability of a vehicle to maintain stringent Tier 2 emission standards
have been hampered, leading to engine deposits which can have a big impact
on in-use emissions and driver satisfaction."
A good article worth reading is from Larry Webster writing in the August,
2005 issue of Car & Driver Magazine.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9752&page_number=1
His source is Andrew Buczynsky; GM's fuel guru. Concerning additives,
Buczynsky states "they should be used with caution. He said some work but
most don't and declined to identify the ones that do." Basically, he
concludes that if you buy cheap gas (Meijers was singled out in not so many
words) then consider an additive. His recommendations are to "stick to Top
Tier fuel. It's the only way to know you're getting the right amount and
type of detergents to keep your engine clean."
QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.
(So where is Mobile??)

And where is BP/Amoco?

Post by Midwest Div
Personally I trust Techron because it was developed by a major player and
has always received good reviews. (And as it does not hurt anything, and may
actually dissolve some gum or deposits, it's inexpensive insurance. About $5
at Wal Mart.)
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/techrongas/
Interesting that they claim that the big three automakers use Chevorn
(contains Techron). According to the site, "Chevron doesn't market gasoline
anywhere near the Michigan home of the Big Three automakers. They buy and
use only Chevron gasoline with Techron, even though they must purchase it in
Kentucky and pay to truck it all the way to the Detroit area."

1. One would think that, if Chevron gas is so wonderful that the major
auto manufacturers ship it into Michigan for their own vehicles, Chevron
would want to have gas stations everywhere. The advertising advantage
would be enormous. How big is Chevron? Can't they afford to buy or merge
with some other company?

2. The article does seem to imply that it's referring to Meijer gas, but
isn't the same likely to be true of any other store chain that sells
gas? E.g., some Family Fare supermarkets (they are in W. Michigan, but I
don't know how widespread) have an associated gas station, as do some
Kro(e?)ger stores I saw in Ohio. What about gas from Costco and Sam's
Club? The tankers I've seen delivering to our local Meijer gas stations
have a name that rings no bells with me, but perhaps it's only a haulage
company and the gas comes from whoever's giving them a good deal this week.

Talking of "good deal": Meijer tends to force down the price of its near
neighbors' gas anyway. We have two Meijer gas stations in town, and the
Speedway station next to one and the Mobil station next to the other
usually sell their gas for no more than a penny more a gallon than
Meijer. (But I acknowledge that neither Speedway nor Mobil is on the
"Top Tier" list.)

3. Do better grades of gas from the same company keep the engine
cleaner? I've seen suggestions that it's worth using a tank of Premium
every now and again just to clean the engine out.

Perce

[Dennis]

Actually no. It's exactly the same gas as the lower octane fuel, just with
more anti-knock. Ford Times magazine ran an article on gas in their last
issue (several years ago). It all starts out from the same tank, and becomes
different grades based only on the anti-knock. I remember that the article
also talked about how it was NOT beneficial to use a higher grade than
specified, as the anti-knock sensor would be receiving false info and give
the PCM the wrong reading. Bottom line was, save your money, your not
gaining anything.

3. Do better grades of gas from the same company keep the engine cleaner?
I've seen suggestions that it's worth using a tank of Premium every now
and again just to clean the engine out.
Perce

[Bill Putney]

Post by Dennis
Actually no. It's exactly the same gas as the lower octane fuel, just with
more anti-knock. Ford Times magazine ran an article on gas in their last
issue (several years ago). It all starts out from the same tank, and becomes
different grades based only on the anti-knock. I remember that the article
also talked about how it was NOT beneficial to use a higher grade than
specified, as the anti-knock sensor would be receiving false info and give
the PCM the wrong reading. Bottom line was, save your money, your not
gaining anything.

3. Do better grades of gas from the same company keep the engine cleaner?
I've seen suggestions that it's worth using a tank of Premium every now
and again just to clean the engine out.

So they concluded for sure that different additives aren't added along
the path to becoming higher octane? How did they conclude that? If so,
then the gasoline manufacturers are adding these cleaning agents to
lower grades of gasoline for free (i.e., they don't avertise them for
the lower grades). They don't do anything for free.

I'm willing to listen to an explanation of why a knock sensor picking up
knocking is not a valid input for the PCM top respond to. Either it is
knocking (and needs the timign retarded) or it isn't knocking (and can
stay where it is or advance).

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Steve]

Post by Dennis
Actually no. It's exactly the same gas as the lower octane fuel, just with
more anti-knock. Ford Times magazine ran an article on gas in their last
issue (several years ago). It all starts out from the same tank, and becomes
different grades based only on the anti-knock. I remember that the article
also talked about how it was NOT beneficial to use a higher grade than
specified, as the anti-knock sensor would be receiving false info and give
the PCM the wrong reading. Bottom line was, save your money, your not
gaining anything.

Well, the antiknock sensor CANNOT "receive false info and give the PCM
the wrong reading," since it only detects the presence or absence of
detonation. But the basic point is correct- there's NO benefit to using
higher octane fuel than your engine requires. If the required octane
eliminates detonation, then premium will also prevent detonation and
therefore the PCM will set the engine parameters exactly the same as it
would with premium fuel- the only difference being the premium fuel
costs more to buy.

[n***@sny.der.on.ca]

Post by Steve

Post by Dennis
Actually no. It's exactly the same gas as the lower octane fuel, just with
more anti-knock. Ford Times magazine ran an article on gas in their last
issue (several years ago). It all starts out from the same tank, and becomes
different grades based only on the anti-knock. I remember that the article
also talked about how it was NOT beneficial to use a higher grade than
specified, as the anti-knock sensor would be receiving false info and give
the PCM the wrong reading. Bottom line was, save your money, your not
gaining anything.

Well, the antiknock sensor CANNOT "receive false info and give the PCM
the wrong reading," since it only detects the presence or absence of
detonation. But the basic point is correct- there's NO benefit to using
higher octane fuel than your engine requires. If the required octane
eliminates detonation, then premium will also prevent detonation and
therefore the PCM will set the engine parameters exactly the same as it
would with premium fuel- the only difference being the premium fuel
costs more to buy.

Not totally correct. IF the engine has a knock sensor, it may be able
to compensate for low octane fuel by retarding timing and other
strategies - which decrease power and econmy but emiminate ping. A
higher octane fuel would then allow the engine to run at more optimum
settings, giving better power and economy - occaisionall more than
enough to compensate for the higher cost od high octane fuel.

[Dennis]

As I stated, this was an official publication of Ford (not my opinion.) If
I remember correctly, they stated that the engine was allowed to ping
slightly, just enough for the sensor to read.
If you don't agree, try contacting Ford and argue with them. (Personally I
could care less, I'm only passing along what a major auto manufactured had
to say about it.)

Post by n***@sny.der.on.ca
Not totally correct. IF the engine has a knock sensor, it may be able
to compensate for low octane fuel by retarding timing and other
strategies - which decrease power and econmy but emiminate ping. A
higher octane fuel would then allow the engine to run at more optimum
settings, giving better power and economy - occaisionall more than
enough to compensate for the higher cost od high octane fuel.

[Bill Putney]

Or you're not relating what they said accurately. If that is what they
said, then part of reading what any manufacturer says is knowing when
they are FOS.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

Post by Dennis
As I stated, this was an official publication of Ford (not my opinion.) If
I remember correctly, they stated that the engine was allowed to ping
slightly, just enough for the sensor to read.
If you don't agree, try contacting Ford and argue with them. (Personally I
could care less, I'm only passing along what a major auto manufactured had
to say about it.)

Post by n***@sny.der.on.ca
Not totally correct. IF the engine has a knock sensor, it may be able
to compensate for low octane fuel by retarding timing and other
strategies - which decrease power and econmy but emiminate ping. A
higher octane fuel would then allow the engine to run at more optimum
settings, giving better power and economy - occaisionall more than
enough to compensate for the higher cost od high octane fuel.

[Dennis]

Well Bill, I guess Ford doesn't know what they're talking about then.

Post by Bill Putney
Or you're not relating what they said accurately. If that is what they
said, then part of reading what any manufacturer says is knowing when they
are FOS.

[Bill Putney]

Post by Dennis
Well Bill, I guess Ford doesn't know what they're talking about then.

Post by Bill Putney
Or you're not relating what they said accurately. If that is what they
said, then part of reading what any manufacturer says is knowing when they
are FOS.

If they *really* said in effect that the computer wouldn't know how to
interpret knocking with "hi-test" but it would know how to interpret
knocking with mid grade, then - yeah - I would say that they don't know
what they're talking about. I suggested two possibilities - you only
considered one. I'd have to see the actual quote.

Bill Putney
(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my
address with the letter 'x')

[Dennis]

Post by Bill Putney
If they *really* said in effect that the computer wouldn't know how to
interpret knocking with "hi-test" but it would know how to interpret
knocking with mid grade, then - yeah - I would say that they don't know
what they're talking about. I suggested two possibilities - you only
considered one. I'd have to see the actual quote.

Yea, I wish I still had it. It was in the last (or second to last) issue of
the Ford Times (or Ford Life or one of the Ford magazines you got when you
purchased a new Ford auto. Thought the name was Ford Times, could be
mistaken.)

[k***@sisna.com]

Chevron merged with Texaco some time ago. Also, Conono has merged with
Phillips.

I did not see Citigo or Sinclair on the list. Does Citigo come from
Latin America?

-Kirk Matheson

[Steve]

Post by Percival P. Cassidy
3. Do better grades of gas from the same company keep the engine
cleaner? I've seen suggestions that it's worth using a tank of Premium
every now and again just to clean the engine out.
Perce

That depends on whether or not the premium grade has more detergent
additives or not. And even then, the antiknock additives found in
premium grades may result in MORE deposit formation, especially if used
in a low compression engine that doesn't burn them as completely as a
high compression engine that they're designed for. In general, I would
say "no" premium grades do not clean better than the same brand of
regular, but there are probably exceptions.

[David]

Post by Midwest Div

Post by Greg Houston
Is there any advantage of using a fuel injector cleaner (poured into the
gas tank)? I have a 99 3.2L engine LH car. Up unil this point
If they are helpful, what is a good injector cleaner to use? Chevron
Techron?

Good question Greg. I use Techron in my cars about once or twice a year.
So I decided to do a little research. What I found was there are real
differences between gasoline's, and four automakers, BMW, General Motors,
Honda, and Toyota decided to ban together to decide just makes "good" gas.
They came up with a new standard called "Top Tier". When you look at
www.toptiergas.com some interesting new facts emerge.

You know as soon as I noticed the name of the website I was sceptical. Who
owns this website? Well It is registered to:

Registrant: Make this info private
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US

Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM

Administrative Contact :
Denny, Jim
***@aol.com
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: [phone]


Do you trust a website to give you the whole truth? How old is the info?
Doesn't state. I would really like to know if they manufacturers have
endorsed this website. But they didn't.

By the way Jim Denny is the VP for Quiktrip, the po box is a drop box for
Quiktrip, and the number is customer service for quiktrip.

My cousin works for Mobil, they are certified for top tier status. And they
have been for almost a year. So why are they not on the list. Notice it does
not list Manufacturers of top tier. Only retailers!

Well just so you know. Somerset refinery is part of the Quiktrip
corporation, so is MFA oil company, which is one of the transportation
companies used to deliver there gasoline.

There is a big discussion about this website on the BMW boards also.
Apparently Some have contacted Quiktrip about this website and refused to
admit it is their website.

Post by Midwest Div
Personally I trust Techron because it was developed by a major player and
has always received good reviews. (And as it does not hurt anything, and
may actually dissolve some gum or deposits, it's inexpensive insurance.
About $5 at Wal Mart.)
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/techrongas/
Interesting that they claim that the big three automakers use Chevorn
(contains Techron). According to the site, "Chevron doesn't market
gasoline anywhere near the Michigan home of the Big Three automakers. They
buy and use only Chevron gasoline with Techron, even though they must
purchase it in Kentucky and pay to truck it all the way to the Detroit
area."

[Percival P. Cassidy]

On 09/07/05 04:09 pm David tossed the following ingredients into the

Post by David

. . . I use Techron in my cars about once or twice a year.
So I decided to do a little research. What I found was there are real
differences between gasoline's, and four automakers, BMW, General Motors,
Honda, and Toyota decided to ban together to decide just makes "good" gas.
They came up with a new standard called "Top Tier". When you look at
www.toptiergas.com some interesting new facts emerge.

You know as soon as I noticed the name of the website I was sceptical. Who
Registrant: Make this info private
National Products Group
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Domain Name: TOPTIERGAS.COM
Denny, Jim
P.O. Box 3475
Tulsa, OK 74101
US
Phone: [phone]
Do you trust a website to give you the whole truth? How old is the info?
Doesn't state. I would really like to know if they manufacturers have
endorsed this website. But they didn't.
By the way Jim Denny is the VP for Quiktrip, the po box is a drop box for
Quiktrip, and the number is customer service for quiktrip.
My cousin works for Mobil, they are certified for top tier status. And they
have been for almost a year. So why are they not on the list. Notice it does
not list Manufacturers of top tier. Only retailers!
Well just so you know. Somerset refinery is part of the Quiktrip
corporation, so is MFA oil company, which is one of the transportation
companies used to deliver there gasoline.
There is a big discussion about this website on the BMW boards also.
Apparently Some have contacted Quiktrip about this website and refused to
admit it is their website.

At least GM does seem to endorse it:
http://www.gm.com/automotive/fueleconomy/detergent.html

"The month of May marks the one year anniversary of TOP TIER Detergent
Gasoline. Since May 2004, six fuel marketers, both large and small, have
joined the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline program. They are: ChevronTexaco,
QuikTrip, ConocoPhillips, Shell, Entec Stations, and MFA Oil Company.
Together they represent about 35% of all the gasoline sold in the U.S.,
amounting to about 48.5 billion gallons annually."

Note that it does not mention Mobil either.

Perce

[Steve]

Post by Midwest Div
QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company
Kwik Trip/Kwik Star
The Somerset Refinery, Inc.

That's a REALLY suspicious list. Not only 'where is Mobil?' but where is
Citgo, BP/Amoco, Sunoco, Valero (Diamond Shamrock), Exxon, and a whole
host of others who produce gasolines that are known to be very
consistent and very good? Makes me think that this is probably a "pay
your dues and you get on our list" kind of thing. Who the heck has ever
heard of "Entec" or "MFA" or QuickTrip" anyway?

Color me dubious.

[Master0fToyz]

Post by Midwest Div
(So where is Mobile??)

Alabama